venture 17 sailboat review

Review of Venture 17

Basic specs..

The hull is made of fibreglass. Generally, a hull made of fibreglass requires only a minimum of maintenance during the sailing season. And outside the sailing season, just bottom cleaning and perhaps anti-fouling painting once a year - a few hours of work, that's all.

The boat equipped with a fractional rig. A fractional rig has smaller headsails which make tacking easier, which is an advantage for cruisers and racers, of course. The downside is that having the wind from behind often requires a genaker or a spinnaker for optimal speed.

CentreBoard

The Venture 17 is equipped with a centreboard keel. A centreboard keel is a pivoting lifting keel, allowing to sail both coastal and inland waters.

The boat can enter even shallow marinas as the draft is just about 0.43 - 0.53 meter (1.41 - 1.71 ft) dependent on the load. See immersion rate below.

Sailing characteristics

This section covers widely used rules of thumb to describe the sailing characteristics. Please note that even though the calculations are correct, the interpretation of the results might not be valid for extreme boats.

What is Capsize Screening Formula (CSF)?

The capsize screening value for Venture 17 is 2.73, indicating that this boat would not be accepted to participate in ocean races.

What is Theoretical Maximum Hull Speed?

The theoretical maximal speed of a displacement boat of this length is 5.2 knots. The term "Theoretical Maximum Hull Speed" is widely used even though a boat can sail faster. The term shall be interpreted as above the theoretical speed a great additional power is necessary for a small gain in speed.

The immersion rate is defined as the weight required to sink the boat a certain level. The immersion rate for Venture 17 is about 59 kg/cm, alternatively 330 lbs/inch. Meaning: if you load 59 kg cargo on the boat then it will sink 1 cm. Alternatively, if you load 330 lbs cargo on the boat it will sink 1 inch.

Sailing statistics

This section is statistical comparison with similar boats of the same category. The basis of the following statistical computations is our unique database with more than 26,000 different boat types and 350,000 data points.

What is Motion Comfort Ratio (MCR)?

What is L/B (Length Beam Ratio)?

What is Displacement Length Ratio?

What is SA/D (Sail Area Displacement ratio)?

Maintenance

When buying anti-fouling bottom paint, it's nice to know how much to buy. The surface of the wet bottom is about 11m 2 (118 ft 2 ). Based on this, your favourite maritime shop can tell you the quantity you need.

Are your sails worn out? You might find your next sail here: Sails for Sale

If you need to renew parts of your running rig and is not quite sure of the dimensions, you may find the estimates computed below useful.

This section is reserved boat owner's modifications, improvements, etc. Here you might find (or contribute with) inspiration for your boat.

Do you have changes/improvements you would like to share? Upload a photo and describe what you have done.

We are always looking for new photos. If you can contribute with photos for Venture 17 it would be a great help.

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• Sailboat Guide

Venture 17 is a 17 ′ 3 ″ / 5.3 m monohull sailboat designed by Roger MacGregor and built by Macgregor Yacht Corp between 1968 and 1974.

Rig and Sails

Auxilary power, accomodations, calculations.

The theoretical maximum speed that a displacement hull can move efficiently through the water is determined by it's waterline length and displacement. It may be unable to reach this speed if the boat is underpowered or heavily loaded, though it may exceed this speed given enough power. Read more.

Classic hull speed formula:

Hull Speed = 1.34 x √LWL

Max Speed/Length ratio = 8.26 ÷ Displacement/Length ratio .311 Hull Speed = Max Speed/Length ratio x √LWL

Sail Area / Displacement Ratio

A measure of the power of the sails relative to the weight of the boat. The higher the number, the higher the performance, but the harder the boat will be to handle. This ratio is a "non-dimensional" value that facilitates comparisons between boats of different types and sizes. Read more.

SA/D = SA ÷ (D ÷ 64) 2/3

• SA : Sail area in square feet, derived by adding the mainsail area to 100% of the foretriangle area (the lateral area above the deck between the mast and the forestay).
• D : Displacement in pounds.

Ballast / Displacement Ratio

A measure of the stability of a boat's hull that suggests how well a monohull will stand up to its sails. The ballast displacement ratio indicates how much of the weight of a boat is placed for maximum stability against capsizing and is an indicator of stiffness and resistance to capsize.

Ballast / Displacement * 100

Displacement / Length Ratio

A measure of the weight of the boat relative to it's length at the waterline. The higher a boat’s D/L ratio, the more easily it will carry a load and the more comfortable its motion will be. The lower a boat's ratio is, the less power it takes to drive the boat to its nominal hull speed or beyond. Read more.

D/L = (D ÷ 2240) ÷ (0.01 x LWL)³

• D: Displacement of the boat in pounds.
• LWL: Waterline length in feet

Comfort Ratio

This ratio assess how quickly and abruptly a boat’s hull reacts to waves in a significant seaway, these being the elements of a boat’s motion most likely to cause seasickness. Read more.

Comfort ratio = D ÷ (.65 x (.7 LWL + .3 LOA) x Beam 1.33 )

• D: Displacement of the boat in pounds
• LOA: Length overall in feet
• Beam: Width of boat at the widest point in feet

Capsize Screening Formula

This formula attempts to indicate whether a given boat might be too wide and light to readily right itself after being overturned in extreme conditions. Read more.

CSV = Beam ÷ ³√(D / 64)

Thanks to ‘sea_scooter’ for providing updated information.

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VENTURE 17 Detailed Review

If you are a boat enthusiast looking to get more information on specs, built, make, etc. of different boats, then here is a complete review of VENTURE 17. Built by Macgregor Yacht Corp and designed by Roger MacGregor, the boat was first built in 1968. It has a hull type of Swing Keel and LOA is 5.28. Its sail area/displacement ratio 25.96. Its auxiliary power tank, manufactured by undefined, runs on undefined.

VENTURE 17 has retained its value as a result of superior building, a solid reputation, and a devoted owner base. Read on to find out more about VENTURE 17 and decide if it is a fit for your boating needs.

Boat Information

Boat specifications, sail boat calculation, rig and sail specs, contributions, who designed the venture 17.

VENTURE 17 was designed by Roger MacGregor.

Who builds VENTURE 17?

VENTURE 17 is built by Macgregor Yacht Corp.

When was VENTURE 17 first built?

VENTURE 17 was first built in 1968.

How long is VENTURE 17?

VENTURE 17 is 4.57 m in length.

What is mast height on VENTURE 17?

VENTURE 17 has a mast height of 5.64 m.

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The Venture 17 is a 17.33ft fractional sloop designed by Roger MacGregor and built in fiberglass by Macgregor Yacht Corp between 1968 and 1974.

The Venture 17 is a light sailboat which is a very high performer. It is stable / stiff and has a low righting capability if capsized. It is best suited as a day-boat.

Venture 17 for sale elsewhere on the web:

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• Sailboat Reviews

Venture 21 Used-boat Review

The vintage macgregor is a good example of a budget-friendly boat..

Maybe this has happened to you: You’re on a country road, driving to a wedding (or family vacation or business conference), and you pass a sailboat on a trailer with a “For Sale” sign. It’s not a big boat. It’s not a small boat. But it’s just about right for launching a small adventure with your young family, or maybe you’re looking to downsize. You can’t resist stopping for a closer look. Incredibly, the sign reads “$600,” including a nearly new trailer and an old 4-horsepower, two-stroke outboard that “runs like a top.” You write down the number and drive away, thinking: “Somebody is giving away a perfectly good boat.”

Chances are that “steal of a deal” is a Roger MacGregor-designed Venture 21, and if not, it’s probably one of the many copycats riding the trailer-sailer boom that MacGregor’s little boat ignited. The Catalina 22, the Santana 21, and the San Juan 21 are just some of the boats that followed closely in the wake of the Venture 21’s introduction.

The concept for the Venture 21 came out of MacGregor’s master’s thesis in the Stanford University MBA program. The first hull was introduced in 1965, but full-fledged production didn’t begin until 1967. Several thousand hulls later, the last MacGregor 21 (the boat was renamed in 1980) rolled off the line in 1986 at the MacGregor factory in Costa Mesa, Calif. Today, with some 36,000 sailboat hulls behind it, the company builds just one boat, the hybrid sailboat/powerboat MacGregor 26x.

Although MacGregor sold fewer Venture 21s than its successor—the Venture 22, which later became the pop-top Venture 22-2—the 21’s easy trailerability and affordable price helped it maintain its popularity throughout the 1970s. Capitalizing on the fiberglass revolution in boatbuilding, MacGregor’s business-school project sparked a pivotal marketing shift that helped bring recreational sailing to mainstream America.

While the trailer-sailer boom is far behind us, the Venture 21 and its many look-alikes have renewed relevance today. With their discretionary spending sharply cut, younger sailors are taking the Craigslist-route into sailing, scouring the classified ads for boats that don’t require dock space but still have room for a family sail. Meanwhile, many owners of 30-plus-footers are considering downsizing to a boat that doesn’t require mooring fees and a hefty maintenance bill each spring. For better or for worse, in the dim light of a recession, a back-to-basics giveaway boat on the roadside begins to look awfully enticing. For these and other reasons, PS decided to take a closer look at the Venture 21, which, in many ways, is the epitome of “the boat with a price I couldn’t refuse.”

The Venture 21 was designed to be affordable, easy to trailer and launch, and fun to sail, with enough room below for storing gear, napping, or even spending a night at anchor. It was principally aimed at new sailors, but it also appealed to those who wanted to step up from an open daysailer. Its size, sail area, and hull design were tailored for lakes and bays with fickle breezes of less than 15 knots.

Seaworthiness and performance were important considerations but pragmatism and aesthetic appeal were the driving force behind its design features.

Although the boat’s low headroom and Spartan interior would not qualify it as a weekender today, it was initially marketed as a “cruising” sailboat. A sleep-aboard sailboat that could be hauled around the country behind the family station wagon seemed perfectly in tune with the wanderlust of the 1960s.

While the Venture 21 is regarded as one of the first modern trailer-sailers, no single design element stands out as particularly revolutionary or unique. Instead, MacGregor incorporated proven features that would not only appeal to serious sailors, but also would remain consistent with the public perception of what a good boat should be and look like. In the yacht market, the Cruising Club of America boats were still the aesthetic model. Carl Alberg’s popular Ensign, launched by Pearson in 1962, is a good example of a small boat that clung to the CCA philosophy and aesthetic.

The Venture’s heritage is more closely aligned with two daysailers that were enjoying a surge of popularity on the East Coast in the early 1960s: the 17-foot Day Sailer, designed by George O’Day and Uffa Fox in 1958, and, to a lesser degree, the Phillip Rhodes-designed Rhodes 19, first offered by O’Day in 1959. Both were built by the nascent O’Day Group of Fall River, Mass. The similarities in the three boats are most apparent above the waterline. All have a relatively flat sheer line and spoon-like bow overhang (or spoonbow), elements that predate the modern yachting era.

While the Rhodes 19 still carries fairly deep V-sections well aft, making it a capable performer in the chop typical of its New England home waters, the Day Sailer flattens out, particularly at the stern, giving it fast, near-planing speeds off the wind. Fox and O’Day later refined this feature, earning Fox a reputation as the innovator of the planing dinghy. With a modest V-shape and a relatively fine bow, the Venture 21 lies somewhere between the two Rhodes 19 and the Day Sailer.

The Venture’s swing keel gives it 5 feet, 6 inches of draft—even more than its popular big brother, the Venture 25—and retracts to allow the boat to float in about 15 inches of water. (The brochure says 12 inches.)

Although the original design called for a fractional rig with a 22-foot mast, this was later changed to a masthead rig, giving it quite a bit of horsepower for its era. At the peak of its production in the late 1970s, the Venture 21 enjoyed popularity as a racing boat, with fleets springing up on the Gulf Coast, the Great Lakes, and the Northeast, as well as its home waters of Southern California. Although some owners have gone to the trouble of re-routing running rigging, fairing the keel, adding travelers and vangs, and replacing the pinned turnbuckles with threaded turnbuckles, we’d encourage someone inclined toward performance to look at a more modern hull with an active racing fleet.

One of the most notable features is the boat’s 7-foot cockpit, as big as that found in the much larger and heavier Catalina 22. However, unlike the Catalina 22, the San Juan 21, and the successively longer Ventures (V-22, V-23, V-25) that widened the cabintop to provide more interior space, the Venture 21 preserves enough sidedeck for crew to move forward . . . with care. Many V-21s, like the one we sailed, never had lifelines; others have had their lifelines removed. The standard single lifelines—low and poorly supported by widely spaced stanchions—offer a modicum of safety, but these are still less than ideal. In our view, lifelines are not a deal-breaker on a 21-foot daysailer, but if you have small children, a boat that is equipped with lifelines with a supporting pushpit and pulpit would be preferable.

The cockpit has a small lazarette, presumably to store fuel for the small bracket-mounted outboard, but this leads directly to the bilge, a bad idea that presents a potential fire risk. The original boats came equipped with top-grinding winches with short T-tracks for the jib. The boat we sailed had only a single fixed-point for the jib sheet. The end-of-boom mainsheet has a 4:1 purchase that spreads the load to each corner of the stern, a basic setup that limits trim options. Some owners modified the leads and added a mainsheet traveler, although this entails either raising the traveler over the tiller, or moving the sheet forward on the boom; both are compromise solutions.

A modest 18- by 18-inch fiberglass bow hatch allows ventilation down below, as well as a place for sails to be passed down. There is no anchor locker or chain pipe. The boat we sailed had an 8-inch diameter screw-on PVC deck plate that was apparently used as a chain pipe.

Overall, the deck has a functional layout, fine for its primary mission, which is to enjoy some time on the water with very little hassle.

Accommodations

The biggest drawback to the Venture 21’s emphasis on trailerability and a 1960s aesthetic is the lack of headroom below. By keeping the cabintop and topsides profile low, MacGregor produced a boat that, in our view, is better looking than the slab-sided models that followed. However, the end result is a very cramped interior. The VW-camper-inspired pop-top on the Venture 22-2, which came shortly after the Venture 21, offered a compromise that was adopted by a number of boats in this size range. Gradually, the intrinsic appeal of a low profile gave way to market demands. (MacGregor’s current and only model, the M26x, is a classic example of the wedding cake look that eschews traditional aesthetics for the sake of comfort below.)

With two quarter berths and a V-berth, the Venture 21 technically could sleep four, but this sort of arrangement probably would be brief and acrimonious. Although you could pack a lot of gear under the cockpit, actual locker storage is limited. Some ambitious owners have added sinks, small galleys, 12-volt systems, and port-a-potties below, but the boat’s cramped headroom restricts its suitability for more than a few days of cruising. For the 20-something adventurer with aspirations of camp-cruising on one of America’s many inland lakes, it will do just fine, but more than a couple of days aboard a boat this size will be a sure test of any marriage.

Construction

During the Venture 21’s 15-year production run, from 1965-1980, the materials and construction methods used for its deck, rig, structural components, and keel went through several changes. Construction of the hull itself, however, remained virtually unchanged. The hull was hand laid up with woven roven and mat. The layup schedule was a single unit of alternating mat and woven roven. Owners do report flexing in some spots, although we noted none on the boat we tested. The early boats are fairly resin rich, so hull thickness is not necessarily a reflection of strength.

The earliest Ventures had a stick-built interior, with bulkheads and bunks made of resin-coated cuts of plywood that were laminated in place. These earlier versions make it easier for owners to modify or rebuild an interior, and this is almost an inevitable project, given plywood’s propensity to rot and delaminate.

By the mid-1970s, MacGregor switched to a molded liner, which accelerated production and eliminated issues of rot, but added about 200 pounds to the total weight. Large sections of the boat are enclosed and filled with foam—a touted safety feature—but it is nonsense to consider the boat unsinkable, as some websites and blog posts suggest.

About 50 V-21s featured lead keels. The poured lead was anchored to a steel beam, and the entire construction sheathed in fiberglass. This process was not only expensive, but it also presented significant corrosion problems, as water eventually migrated into the fiberglass-encased keel.

Most models have solid iron keels; corrosion, however, is still a problem with these keels, but they can be removed, ground-down, faired, and sealed with an epoxy barrier coat to provide many more years of service. This is the biggest “problem” with the Venture 21, and any buyer should take a close look at the keel and the related components.

The original deck was plywood core, but this was later changed to balsa. In either case, rot is a potential problem (particularly in areas of the owner-installed deck hardware), but none of the 14 owners of Venture 21s who participated in our survey reported significant problems with deck rot.

The hull-to-deck joint was initially a bolted and adhesive-bonded shoebox joint, in which the lip of the deck flange fits over the hull just like a shoebox lid. This was later modified to an outward turning flange joint, with the hull lip turning outward to present a horizontal bonding surface for the deck. In both cases, the joint was bonded with a polyurethane adhesive sealant such as 3M 5200, bolted together, and then covered with an extruded aluminum and vinyl rubrail. Neither joint is as rugged as an inward-turning flange, but this is method is typical for a boat of this size.

Early versions of the Venture 21 were fractional rigs, but the majority were masthead rigs with overlapping jibs. An off-center backstay and upper and lower shrouds add support to the 22-foot mast. Early boats, like the 1969 model that we test sailed, did not have spreaders on the upper shrouds. In windy areas, where mast pumping is a noticeable problem, retrofitting spreaders—or looking for a more suitable boat—would be a good idea. The chainplates are through-bolted to the hull, eliminating the typically rot-prone attachment to plywood bulkheads found in some larger boats of this vintage. The original turnbuckles are the fixed-adjustment type that allow 1/8-inch adjustment intervals, making it hard to tune the rig at sea, but impossible to over-tighten, a common novice error.

The two biggest problems cited in our owners’ survey were the hand-crank keel winch and the keel-retaining bolt. Although the keel winches on later MacGregor models are braked mechanisms that will not spin freely under load, the one on the Venture 21 is a common ratchet-type trailer winch. If it is let go under load, the handle can whip around dangerously. Many owners have replaced this with a braked winch—a good idea, although these winches will require more maintenance. The keel-retaining bolt is a 3/8-inch diameter bolt that is slipped through a hole in the centerboard trunk and a corresponding hole in the keel. It is used to lock the keel in place when sailing in deep water, preventing the keel from flopping back into the hull should the boat capsize or surf down the face of a wave. The retaining bolts are commonly bent during a grounding, and any boat with a bent one should be inspected closely around the hull and keel trunk for other signs of damage.

Overall, the construction is light, but adequate for the boat’s designed purposes. If the deck isn’t too rotten, and the swing keel and keel box aren’t shot, most any other potential problem on the Venture 21 is easily remedied by someone who is handy and has the time.

Performance

During its heyday, the Venture 21 was promoted for it speed. MacGregor touted its position as the first of the “hot retracting keel boats” and the “fastest of its type,” with “planing speeds at over 16 miles per hour.” In this age of ultra-light monohulls and multihulls with eye-popping sail area (see PS, September 2009 and May 2010), this sort of hype seems quaint, but if you compare the Venture 21 to other boats of its era, it is clearly no slouch (See “Venture 21 in Context,” page 11). Its sail area/displacement ratio puts it ahead of several contenders, and its hull form—as mentioned—does give it an ability to hit double-digit speeds in the right hands.

The boat we test sailed was handicapped by ancient sails and an outboard that could not be fully tilted out of the water. Although the boat had a masthead rig, the headsail was a fractional working jib. A 140-percent genoa, found on many boats, would have added about 25 percent to the total sail area. To windward, the boat tacked smartly through 90 degrees, although we’d expect a boat with good sails to point higher. The boat was initially tender on the wind, but once the full effect of the 400-pound keel exerted its influence, the boat settled into a comfortable heel. Despite the deep bellies in her sails, the boat handled gusts surprisingly well, and by adjusting the swing keel’s depth, testers could easily achieve a balanced helm. Off the wind in 12 to 15 knots of breeze, we were able to sustain speeds of 7 knots under working sails alone with the keel almost fully retracted. While not wind-in-your hair sailing by today’s standards, it meets our definition of fun.

Conclusions

After spending some time aboard the Venture 21, we were reminded how much and how little has changed since the boat was introduced more than 40 years ago. Most comparable modern “weekenders” with big cockpits and modest cabins, like the Precision 21 or Catalina Capris 22, offer much more in terms of safety, systems (limited as they are), and modern conveniences. And entry-level daysailers like the thermo-molded Hunter 216 offer more in terms of performance options, such as a sprit for the asymmetrical sail and rigging conveniences like a hydraulic lifting keel. If true small-boat performance with a potential for one-design racing is what you’re after, then a boat like the J/22 presents a more sensible choice.

While overall construction quality has improved over the past 40 years, most daysailer hulls (the Hunter 216 and the balsa-cored J/22 excepted) are still solid fiberglass and laid up by hand, an economical and forgiving method. Many daysailers with cabins are actually much heavier than the lightly built V-21, but they also have much better finish quality.

The bottom line with the Venture 21 is the bottom line. If you hunt around long enough, you are likely to pick up a sailaway boat with a trailer and outboard for less than $3,000­—about the cost of a new trailer. The boat we sailed sold for far less, including the trailer and 4-horsepower Evinrude. If you are really patient, you can probably find a fixer-upper that someone will give to if you promise to drag it off their property.

Is this 40-year-old, mass-produced boat still a viable option for the entry-level sailor, or someone looking to downsize? No question about it. The Venture 21 is not a boat we’d recommend for someone with offshore aspirations or in places like San Francisco Bay where heavy air and a stiff chop would render it wet, slow, and uncomfortable. However, if you plan some coastal or lake adventures and are limited by a 2,000-pound tow capacity and a recession-era budget, then the Venture 21 definitely deserves a look.

There is one key caveat: Because it is easy to underestimate the amount of work required to revive barn-found boat, we would strongly urge looking for a Venture 21 that is in sailaway condition, rather than a project boat. Dealing with the iron keel alone can be a time-consuming project, and despite the boat’s interesting history, this adds little or no to resale value. On the good side, however, should you decide to embark on the restoration of a Venture 21, you will not be alone. Plenty have done it before, and given the boat’s irresistibly low price tag, more will surely follow in their wake.

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What kind of Trailer did your boat have. Mine (1972) is a 4″ welded C Channel, Is this a factory style trailer or somebody’s back yard built. It has the right v notches for the C/B etc.

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Venture 17 Description

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Venture 17' not sailed since 2003

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My wife and I recently became aware of a 17' Venture (1972) that is for sale that hasn't been in the water since 2003. We are hoping to be able to view it this weekend. Up until this time all our experience has been with open cockpits or catamarans. This is a cruzer. Besides looking for the obvious like 3 foot hole in the hull, mast in the shape of a pretzel, or there is no place to mount the rudder is there anything that you would advise a first time boat purchaser to look for. In an email the owner told us, the sails are in good shape about 20 years old, The mast and rigging are also in good shape. There are no soft spots in the deck. The wheels on the trailer have pressure fittings. The boat can be sailed as is. Work required according to the present owner is none. Althought it could use new paint below the water line and varnish on the wood. These answers were all provided in response to questions I had posed. I've done some research on 17' Ventures and understand they have a swing down keel. How do you swing down the keel. These keels weigh about 275 lbs. How does one go about lowering or hoisting them back up? That isn't a weight that most people could manhandle. I sure would appreciate any advice you can give. Thank you. Have a Great Day, Jim  

You may wish to ask your questions here: Ask A Macgregor Owner - SailboatOwners.com Or here: MacGregorSailors.com • View forum - MacGregor/Venture Discussion for more model specific answers. Some of the folks on these sites actually own a Venture 17.  

Thank you for taking the time to reply. Have just joined one and posted there. Waiting for activation email on the second. Have a Great Day, Jim  

I just came into two of these boats in various states of disrepair. The keel is raised and lowered with a cable and winch that is mounted on a board that straddles the cockpit seats. If yours doesn't have the winch contraption, you will need to rig one before trying to launch. Getting the keel up without the winch will be next to impossible short of driving the boat back up on the trailer and forcing it up on the trailer frame. Which,by the way is what you will need to do if the cable were to break. What I've found on both of the boats that I have aquired is that the "radiator hose" that the cable goes through to get to the keel is deteriorated and has to be replaced. If yours is like this too, you will sink the boat fairly quickly if you launch before repair. Go in the cabin and inspect this hose carefully. I have also found that the through hull fittings on any boat that has been out of the water for a time need to be serviced or replaced for dry operation. Other than that, the Venture 17 seems to be a rugged little day/lake sailor that is simple and easy to operate. Put as much or as little money in one as you wish but please, have fun!  

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post. We decided to pass on the boat we were looking at. When we actually looked at the boat. The keel started to show initial cracks indicating that it was starting to delaminate. With all the other projects we currently have going on around the house. This was one project we decided to pass on, Have a Great Day, Jim  

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Rigging 17' Venture 1972

Post by ross » Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:14 pm

Post by shepcarp » Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:50 am

Venture Manuals

Post by nnelson1 » Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:15 pm

How about a 1977 21' Venture?

Post by IowaBrewer » Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:01 pm

Post by shepcarp » Sun Aug 07, 2005 8:18 pm

Post by argonaut » Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:54 pm

Post by shepcarp » Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:10 am

Venture 17 rigging

Post by mezr » Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:57 am

Post by technicalman » Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:58 pm

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Michael Wright: Finding treasure by driving past fish

The North Fork of the St. Joe River is the least prominent of North Idaho’s north forks. Anglers are more inclined to rave about the directional branches of the Coeur d’Alene and Clearwater rivers. When they do venture west of St. Maries and up the St. Joe drainage, most are more inclined to settle for a roadside run on the main Joe than to turn left outside of Avery and leave the blacktop behind.

It makes sense. Westslope cutthroat trout grow big and pretty in the other north forks. Besides, to get to the North Fork of the St. Joe, an angler would have to drive past 40-something miles of the main Joe, possibly the best cutthroat stream in the region.

Why drive past fish to find fish?

Well, sometimes it pays off.

It was a Saturday morning and I was up early, knowing that it was August and that the temporal window for catching trout was going to be narrow. I’d yet to hit the St. Joe this summer, so I headed that direction. I knew I needed to go way up the drainage to find the coldest water, and I also knew every other angler in the Inland Northwest was probably thinking the same thing. The weather was sunny with a high chance of crowds.

Along the way, I started wondering about the North Fork. I knew it existed, and that a road ran next to it. Surely it held fish, and surely those fish would indulge me. Splashing around in a small stream next to a gravel road is always more fun than making hero casts to the soundtrack of a highway, so when I got past Avery, I turned north on Moon Pass Road. A mile or two in, I pulled over and rigged up next to an empty campsite.

People will tell you that cutthroat trout will eat anything. That’s not always true. The fish I encounter seem to choose a new favorite dry fly each year. It’s almost like they hold an annual election, casting ballots to decide whether they’ll spend the summer reliably mauling the purple haze or the orange stimulator or some write-in candidate made of foam and fuzz.

On this particular day, the winner appeared to be the bugmeister – a relatively esoteric pattern made of peacock, chicken and elk that is a serviceable imitation of a wide array of stoneflies and terrestrial insects. Within about an hour, I’d tussled with a half-dozen fish, all fairly small but nice to look at.

I decided to drive on in search of more fish. The road climbed a little higher and then I saw a sign that I wasn’t expecting: “Single Lane Tunnel Ahead.”

Moments later, there it was, a cement archway lodged into the mountain, the center of it dark as night.

Those familiar with the North Idaho backcountry and its history already know what I’d stumbled upon. Moon Pass follows the bed of the Milwaukee Railroad, which connected this part of Idaho to the rest of the world for most of the 20th century. Avery served as a major hub, and this route connected it to Wallace.

Of course, weaving trains through these mountains meant there had to be some tunnels. Eight of them are part of the Route of the Hiawatha bike trail. Seven are on Moon Pass, which skirts past a trailhead for the popular bike route.

Trains stopped running through here decades ago, and now Moon Pass is a joy ride for off-roaders, campers and those who are easily fascinated, like me.

I parked outside the first tunnel I encountered and walked inside. It was dark and quiet. It was hard to imagine a train rumbling through, and even harder to imagine how one cuts a tube through a mountain.

Back in the car, with the brights turned on, I drove through the tunnel. Not long after, I passed through a couple more. Each one made me grin like a child who just discovered ice cream.

Yes, these tunnels are no secret. But I started the day just hoping to find a fish or two. A surprise encounter with outdated and repurposed infrastructure felt like finding some kind of treasure.

I’m going to have to start driving past fish more often.

Ovarian cancer: How Amy Lindh fought a hard-to-diagnose cancer – and won

With the help of gynecologic oncology specialists at Providence, Amy beat cancer—and found the courage to accomplish things she’d never dreamed of.

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Sailing Performance of the Venture Newport 23

• Thread starter Lost Horizon
• Start date Mar 3, 2011
• Macgregor Owner Forums
• Ask A Macgregor Owner

Lost Horizon

Actually- I'm not sure if this has been posted here yet. I had spoken to Mike Inmon a couple years ago, and he had mentioned wanting to sell his modified D to get the Newport 23. I saw a post saying he found a good one. What I want to know is: How does it sail compared to your D? Anyone else with experience feel free to chime in. Thanks!  

jhnewsome17

I purchased a Venture Newport 23 when the first model was made back in 73. I was looking for a trailerable boat to use on a fresh water lake. The boat was drop dead gorgeous at the time with red hull, & colored jibs. I remember that it had the pop-top cabin roof, which helped a lot. Frankly I wasn't trilled with the quality of the rigging. It was like most Ventures - cheap. As far as sailing characteristics the boat was very tender in moderate winds and almost unsailable in strong winds. It had a terrible weather helm requiring the rudder to be positioned so far to the opposite position that it created terrible drag and slowed the boat. Venture also used oak instead of teak for the bowsprit and the railing around the cockpit. You cannot keep varnish on oak in an outside environment. Once again this was Venture's cheap way of building a boat. I was so disappointed in the Newport that I only kept it a couple years and sold it. If you're looking for a nice day-sailor and can pick one up for a good price it's still a good looking boat. But, I'd look for something with a better reputation and better built.  

Here's an interesting web site for the Newport 23. Lots of information and some pictures. As much as I disliked my Newport 23, I still have a warm spot for the boat because it was so good looking. If Venture had just included a little more quality in the construction and rigging they would have hit a home-run with this boat. http://trusting-1.com/  

Interesting post. I once saw an article on the Newport 23 with a picture of the boat under sail in what appeared to be fairly calm conditions. I couldn't understand why the boat was heeling so much with the helm hard over.  

ChockFullOnuts222

"As far as sailing characteristics the boat was very tender in moderate winds and almost unsailable in strong winds. It had a terrible weather helm requiring the rudder to be positioned so far to the opposite position that it created terrible drag and slowed the boat." Sounds like excessive mast rake to me. As far as I know no mac has been demasted because of light rigging, I guess if you were to carry way to much sail for the conditions the rig might be to light.  

In the factory brochure pictures, the mast appears to have a pretty substantial rake by design  

More mast rake = more weather helm. or maybe just the way the sails were trimed or maybe the keel was not in the proper position I have not heard or read of that problem. To have to steer the boat hard over just to keep it from rounding up means a boat way out of trim.  

"Weather Helm" is an interesting phenomena on a sailboat. I cannot disagree with anything posted. Reducing the rake, or angling the top of the mast more forward, has to reduce weather helm. Proper trimming in stronger wind such as spilling air from the main will also reduce weather helm. But, I believe there are factors other than rake of the mast or trim. Boat design or improper boat design can cause an excessive weather helm and there's little that can be done to completely reduce it. Shape (or lack of shape) and location of the keel are also important factors. I currently own a Seafarer 29' with a swing keel. Of all the boats I've owned this S29 has the most balanced helm I've experienced. I've sailed it with main alone, and with a 150% genoa alone, and there is little difference in respect to the helm. Contrary to this example, there is a Cal 34' on my dock and the owner is complaining of a terrible weather helm. His mast doesn't appear to be raked too much, but we have discussed adjusting it too see if it will make a difference. It would help if he had a backstay adjuster. So far the only thing that has noticeably helped if he spills air from his main until the helm is balanced. Unfortunately, this is probably costing him some SOG. Here's a quote from a post on Wikipedia about weather helm, " the root cause of the phenomenon is the relationship between the center of the force exerted by the sail plan, and the center of the resistance to that force by the hull, and not the angle of heel of the hull." We assume that all boats and designed and tested by competent naval architects, but in Venture/Macgregor's situation back in the 70s who knows? What if cabin comfort is slightly sacrificed by locating the swing keel a few inches forward of it's best position for balance? Here's links to a few good discussions and posts on this subject. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_helm http://www.endeavourowners.com/dscsn/handling/wthrhlm.html A comment on this post supports my position that a serious weather helm is most likely a result of the boat's design. Post from May 12, 1999, " I spoke with Rob at the Endeavour factory (he was there when they still built production boats) and he said even if you take all the rake out of the mast you can not tune out weatherhelm. He said people have had great success putting on a bowsprit and moving the headsail forward a couple of feet." This is a great article on SailNet about "balance" in general. http://www.sailnet.com/forums/seamanship-articles/19146-balance-hull-sails.html  

from your source Mitigation Any action that reduces the angle of heel of a boat that is reaching or beating to windward will help reduce excessing weather helm. Racing sailors routinely try to use bodyweight or other moveable ballast to bring the boat to a more upright position. Reducing or reefing the total sail area will have the same effect and, counter-intuitively, many boats will sail faster with less sail in a stiff breeze once heel and weather helm have been reduced, due to the reduction in underwater drag (see Over-canvassed sailing ). Easing the sheets on aft-most sails, such as the mainsail in a sloop or cutter can have an immediate effect, especially to help with manoeuvering. Moving or increasing sail area forward can also help, for example by raising the jib (and maybe lowering the staysail ) on a cutter. Sailing off the wind, weather helm may be caused by the imbalance due to fore-and-aft sails all being sheeted out on the same (leeward) side of the boat. Raising a spinnaker or poling out a headsail to windward with a whisker pole can help. Yachts making ocean trade wind crossings have rigged 'twins' - double headsails poled out to opposite sides from the same forestay for extended downwind passages without a mainsail. [2] Square rigged sails also provide relatively symmetric drive off the wind. This seems better than a boat design error that no one seems to know anything about.  

My O-Day 22(1980) had pronounced weather helm when heeled. It took two hands on the tiller to keep the boat on course. Adjusting the centerboard did help, but when I installed a new rudder from IdaSailor it was a major change. Now the helm is very light with only slight weather helm regardless of the angle of heel. No other change to the mast or rigging was made. I had the same experience with my O'Day Mariner when I replaced the rudder.  

When I bought my V-23, I had extreme weather helm. I thought the boat was the worst sailing boat that I had ever owned... but beautiful. I wrote to MacGregor and discovered that I had the keel in the wrong position. It should not hang straight down but should be angled back toward the stern. MacGregor gave me correct angle... there is a bolt hole in the hull and the keel (in my boat) that when a bolt is inserted holds the keel in the right position. That reposition solved the weather helm problem completely. Also, I do not use the small head sail (Yankee Jib) unless the wind is very light... the boat does not handle well other wise. Another big improvement in handling that I made was replacing the rudder with an IdaSailor rudder. The boat is a bit tippy in heavy wind but I have two solutions for that: a heavy crew or back-winding the main with the jib.  

"The boat is a bit tippy in heavy wind but I have two solutions for that: a heavy crew or back-winding the main with the jib." What does that mean? I thought back-winding like a jib during tacking was where you hold the sail on the windward side of the boat. ( I do it on my Hobie cat to help blow the bow through tacks) I don't understand how holding the main to the windward side of the boat could help with anything, much less reduce heeling. Jim  

You backwind the main when you cause the air flow from the jib to actually push a dent in the main's airfoil instead of flowing over it and producing lift.  

Weather Helm & Back-Winding Ntnrobin, thanks for confirming that I wasn't the only V-23 owner with severe weather helm. I completely agree with your analogy, "unless the wind is very light... the boat does not handle well other wise." Granted, it's been a long time since I owned the Newport, but I had the same opinion of the boat as you, beautiful but not so good a sailing boat. I do remember the keel alignment bolt. I sailed my Newport in a large man-made fresh water lake. The only deep parts of the lake are the runs of the old rivers. Otherwise the lake is relatively shallow. If I ran aground with the keel bolt inserted it was almost impossible to remove. If I sailed with tension on the keel cable it sung like an out of tune violin, so I generally sailed with the keel all the way down. Your explanation from Venture HQ about the keel angle causing weather helm matches other information I've read about potential causes of weather helm. Your terminology about back-winding the main is new to me but makes sense. With a weather helm you need to shift power or force ahead of the mast and reduce it to the rear of the mast. Seems like the easiest way to do this is just to set the main sheet traveler to the lee side or to spill air by letting out the main sheet. How do you set the head sail to back-wind the main?  

The Venture of Newport was a copy of a Pilot Boat from the late 1800's. Roger Macgreor stayed true to the design as much as possible with the exception of the swing keel. These boat were made to get out to incoming vessels quickly because whoever boarded first got the pilot fee into the harbor. Cute boat but very tender and not very roomy. Fair Winds and full Sails...  

onyx_ranger

My Venture Newport Has a very neutral helm with full main and both jibs flying. I've never had the lock down bolt in the keel, I let the keel rest on this bolt. It does have too much weather helm on full main and staysail without the forward jib. I run everything up to 12 knots, put in the 1st reef point in the main at around 15. At 20 I then drop the forward jib. If the wind continues to 25 I luff the main a bit. The helm stays very neutral, the boat stiffens up quite a bit as it heels. The bowsprit and cockpit railings are mahogany from the factory on my boat. The mast does have a substantial rake to it, around 32 inches.  

Freedom77 said: The Venture of Newport was a copy of a Pilot Boat from the late 1800's. ... Click to expand

onyx_ranger said: My Venture Newport Has a very neutral helm with full main and both jibs flying. I've never had the lock down bolt in the keel, I let the keel rest on this bolt. It does have too much weather helm on full main and staysail without the forward jib. I run everything up to 12 knots, put in the 1st reef point in the main at around 15. At 20 I then drop the forward jib. If the wind continues to 25 I luff the main a bit. The helm stays very neutral, the boat stiffens up quite a bit as it heels. The bowsprit and cockpit railings are mahogany from the factory on my boat. The mast does have a substantial rake to it, around 32 inches. Click to expand

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